Remember when these were worth nothing?

"Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo" (thetomselleck)
06/14/2019 at 20:38 • Filed to: you could never afford one anyway., bat

I blame David Lee.

DISCUSSION (26)

Discerning > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo
06/14/2019 at 20:45

Th ey’re still worthless as far as I’m concerned (value as I perceive them). Its unbelievable to me that people will pay those prices

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo
06/14/2019 at 20:47

Kinja'd!!!

and these were in the 20s.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Discerning
06/14/2019 at 20:48

It is unbelievable — but so are the prices in most of the homes I work in. When you have lots of money — or perhaps, a never-ending cashflow — there are no longer any “bad” decisions because if you’re out there buying $400k Dinos, you pretty much have so much lying around that you couldn’t even spend yourself broke.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
06/14/2019 at 20:49

And they abused one in a Top Gear episode, where it was derided as a budget supercar. Oh the times...

Flavien Vidal > Discerning
06/14/2019 at 20:53

Drive one, trust me, you'll understand the price...

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo
06/14/2019 at 20:55

when the recession hit, not far from where i lived there was a low mile 84 gtsi for sale and a phone book of s ervice records, for 34 k. F or a yea r it was listed and slowly dropped to 29.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Discerning
06/14/2019 at 20:57

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo
06/14/2019 at 20:59

All classic cars are through the roof right now and it makes absolutely no sense.

Discerning > Flavien Vidal
06/14/2019 at 21:14

Hard pass and extremely unlikely that it will make a difference in my perception.

lone_liberal > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo
06/14/2019 at 21:38

Those and Panteras. Nobody wanted them.

someassemblyrequired > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo
06/14/2019 at 21:51

Buy all the Mondials while they are still cheap

Flavien Vidal > Discerning
06/15/2019 at 00:00

Then I’m sorry but until you actually drive one, you have no idea what you’re talking about... It’s a late 60's Ferrari design and the only reason why it has been “cheap” for this long is because it didn’t have a V12. Now it’s a 60's Ferrari design with an engine that more than 10 people in the world can tune and that still sound absolutely incredible! I personally prefer the 206 engine to the 246 though... Sadly the Dino 206 is WAY too rare.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever
06/15/2019 at 00:25

Maybe all the old people with money are starting to get old and realize they can't take it with them, so they may as well enjoy a car they always wanted?

Discerning > Flavien Vidal
06/15/2019 at 07:28

Hold on... I want you to take a second to think about what you’re saying in response to what I said specifically.

I am saying that I have no interest and perceive no value in an expensive car that I will never have any interest in. I’m also saying that I don’t understand how people can spend that much money.

It sounds like I know exactly what I’m saying. I’m conveying my feelings. Where your disconnect lies is my reasoning behind my feelings.

You see, I have no interest in the dino because I feel that spending over 100k on most any car is completely absurd and excessive. No hunk of metal and plastic and glass is worth that kind of money to me. It’s simply not worth it in my mind and thus results in zero interest.

Yes, there are cars that are justifiably worth over 100k as a result of the engineering and materials that went into the car. And yes I understand supply and demand as it pertains to classic cars. But the dino and most all cars over 100k fall into a category that feels like pure excess and that spoils the idea for me.

So you see, I am confident that I know exactly how I feel. It’s not based on objective findings - these are my feelings. Just like how people will pay 400k for an old Ferrari based on their feelings.

Now if you’re saying that a dino is more entertaining to drive than an NSX, Cayman GT4, etc. Then I’ll have to consider driving one (as though that’s a realistic option). But even then my interest will be minimal at best.

Flavien Vidal > Discerning
06/15/2019 at 07:49

How do you feel about paintings? Art in general? These cars aren’t just cars... they are rare pieces of art that you can drive. This is why the value of them is justified... 12 millions for one of 50 McLaren F1? Yep, justified... And it’s not like you’re just throwing that money out of the window. Going to the dealership to buy a brand new 4x4 Lambo? Yes, that’s wasting money. But spending 400k$ now into a car that will be be worth a million in 10 years? That’s a wise investment that will be A LOT more fun than buying a paint or a sculpture for the same value. Most likely a better investment too... Feelings are involved when buying an old Ferrari but the wallet has quite a say in all this.
And yes, though I have no driven a Cayman GT4, I have extensively driven NSX... The Dino is SOOOO much more awesome and exiting to drive, it’s pretty much impossible to compare. That feeling the slow warming gearbox procures when you downshift into 2nd with the screaming Webers behind your head... One of the greatest feeling to ever experience behind the wheel and why those cars are this expensive ... and why they are worth it.

Discerning > Flavien Vidal
06/15/2019 at 07:59

I understand art but I can’t justify myself spending obscene amounts of money for it.

I should tweak my comment to say that I do understand how people can spend that much money on it. It’s worth that to them based on their feelings and emotions.

But it’s not worth it to me. It’s excessive.

Even if the dino is an incredible experience to drive, I can’t begin to perceive it being worth 400k to me. The notion is absurd the more I think about it.

Flavien Vidal > Discerning
06/15/2019 at 08:27

As I’ve explained just earlier, it’s worth it on a lot more than just feelings and emotions... It’s worth it based on the market for these cars. It’s worth it because people know they’ll be worth even more later.
Some people have a lot of money to spend and invest... If you had 50 millions in your bank account, suddenly spending a couple of those in a nice car that will gain in value over time isn’t that much absurd anymore. Especially since you’re taxed on money but not on old cars... Private jets, buying most new cars at luxury dealerships... Yes, that’s throwing money out the windows.

If I had 400k$ to spend, I would not hesitate one bit in spending that money into collectible cars I’ve always drooled onto. It would be a great investment and an insane amount of fun. My father bought a 1973 Alpine A110 1600sc back in 1976. It was worth 5k$... it’s worth 150k$ now and he still owns it. One day I’ll get it and it will be worth double or triple that amount sometime. Will I sell it? No I won’t... but it’s nice to have an investment like that in your garage, that you can still enjoy and IF some hardship occurs, sell in order to save my ass... Oh, and those cars are pieces of art, therefore they are 100% tax exempt in France and in many other countries (I’m french). As I said, much better than keeping your money in the bank and getting that money taxed just because you happen to have it.

Discerning > Flavien Vidal
06/15/2019 at 08:48

Errrr... a lot of those cars that are perceived as an investment really aren’t good investments. There are lots of better ways to invest your 400k. It’s very volatile and the rate of return isn’t that high.

And as I said before, I understand the supply and demand piece. That’s the simplest component of this.

The main component for me though is that I do not perceive it as valuable for myself. My feelings are that it is worthless to me. Of course it has an actual market value, but it is worth nothing to me because I have zero desire to own one. Just because something has a high market value doesn’t mean an individual will perceive it as valuable, no?

Full disclaimer: what I’m about to say about your a110 is based solely on the idea of a car being purchased as an investment. I am sure your father bought it because he liked the car and he was just fortunate that it increased in value. I am fairly sure that it wasn’t purchased with the sole intention of it being an investment and that he enjoyed it far more than money in a bank.

Your father’s purchase amounted to a compound annual growth rate of roughly 8% over the last 43 years and that really isn’t that great... That’s about in line with the S&P 500 over the last 43 years if you exclude dividend payments. With dividend payments, the S&P 500 has a CAGR of roughly 11%. So had your father invested the 5k in an S&P 500 index fund, it would be worth about $490k today... of course you need to factor in management fees and any taxes, but you get the point.

To show you I am not being obtuse, there are few cars that I do appreciate the art and significance of that I nearly perceive a value in line with the market. I could see myself spending 150k on an a110 or 100k on a 930.

That said, there are cars I even hold in high regard like the stratos that I can’t perceive as being worth 400 or 500k. 150k, sure. But much over that is just too excessive.

Khalbali > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo
06/15/2019 at 09:19

I dunno I'm not into Ferraris but that's always been my favorite, just an absolutely beautiful car.

Flavien Vidal > Discerning
06/15/2019 at 09:37

Oh of course, the A110 want a good investment especially since at the same time he was also toying with the idea of buying a Ferrari Daytona instead , which was worth 20k$ at the time. But it wasn’t bought as an investment... It was just a 5000$ car that he wanted as he started to work. We’re in a very different era now, with a different state of mind about these cars. Also, the A110 roughly quadrupled in value since 2000 ... If he wanted to maximize his time/gain ratio, h e bought in waaaaaay too early but again, that wasn’t the point of his purchase.

Investing in the market can indeed show better returns, but you’re still taxed a lot on your profits and I’ll really have to disagree on the investment i n collectible cars being volatile... What 20yo collectible car is known to have lost its entire value over the years? There are none. It’s extremely safe, if only for the fact that the car you buy is insured when your market investments are not. While I can agree that Porsche are way too common to keep on gaining value as they are right now and that it will stop at one point, we’re far from being in the same situation with anything Ferrari from the 60's. The Dino is last 60's Ferrari that’s not past the million$$ yet... And that won’t last for very long.

This is why I’ve bought myself a Lancia Delta Integrale which will surely be something to give to my kids some day, something that will be worth a lot in 40 years and something that they won’t pay inheritance taxes on... There will be more ca rs in the next few years and who knows.... Maybe a 500k$ Dino if I can afford it :)

Discerning > Flavien Vidal
06/15/2019 at 09:56

I suppose it isn’t all that volatile if you purchase something that has shown itself to be something with consistent increases. But those cars also have relatively lower returns at that point because they are already known to be stable . I was more so referring to the people who buy new cars or cars near the bottom of their depreciation curve. The unknowns and speculative purchases.

If one had decided to buy a abused early 90's used car as an investment in 1995, they may have been faced with the decision to choose between a used MK4 Supra, NSX, 300ZX, or 3000gt VR4. Those would have been about the same price but two went up while two went down.

Sme makes are pretty much guaranteed to go up in value eventually , like Ferrari. But many others are volatile. I’m sure people purchased 92 8's, Esprit’s, and C4 ZR1's thinking they would be an investment, but they were sadly mistaken.

The Delta integrale is an awesome car. I enjoy a classic Lancia. I considered getting a Delta when I saw an imported one last year, but I’d have a hard time keeping it stock and parts are hard to come by here. Wouldn’t go this far, but the temptation to modify an AWD turbo r ally car would be too strong:

Kinja'd!!!

Flavien Vidal > Discerning
06/15/2019 at 10:19

Oh I would never consider “investing” in a 5 year old car, especially today ... I’m talking about 25-30 yo cars or more that a clearly good investments now and that will keep on increasing in value over the years. At different rates, sure, but all that while remaining A LOT safer than anything the stock market can offer, all while being tax free and a lot of insured fun. But I think anyone throwing 400k$ into a Dino does a damn good and very safe investment for the next 10 years. Same goes for pretty much anything Italian and from the 60's - early 70's today, no matter the current market value... Be it 400k$ for a Dino or 35 millions for a 250GTO SWB... If I could, both would be in my garage right now. :)

And watch Lotus Esprit (Giugiaro design mostly... Peter Stevens’ will be later) in the next 10 years... I’m seriously considering getting one now actually... ;)

You’d be surprised at Integrale parts... of course you have to get them from the UK or Italy, but they aren’t hard to come by at all. Lots of 8V and 16V were produced (23000 8v and 16v were produced total, 5600 Evo 1 and 4200 EVo2 ) and still today lots of parts are manufactured after market . Of course, body parts, it’s another story, but anything mechanical isn’t hard to come by at all :)

Discerning > Flavien Vidal
06/15/2019 at 10:25

I would like to have an S3 or S4 esprit at some point. So hopefully they don’t appreciate until after I buy one.

Here’s one from the local car show

Kinja'd!!!

But I think I'd rather have an elise. Maybe those will go up too.

Flavien Vidal > Discerning
06/15/2019 at 10:30

I wrote an article on the S3 Esprit Turbo... SUCH a great car. It just needs a bit more relia bi lity :)

https://petrolicious.com/articles/1981-lotus-esprit-turbo-get-one-while-you-can-still-afford-it

Discerning > Flavien Vidal
06/15/2019 at 10:38

Yeah, they seem to be pretty delicate cars. The biggest issue being the gearbox. Though I think some have had success fitting modified quattro and G50 boxes

Flavien Vidal > Discerning
06/15/2019 at 19:52

Sorry I went to bed :)
But yeah, the gearbox on the one I drove had 2nd gear synchro that was getting old too...